Do your associates just not care?

Honest question. What's wrong with taking an hour on a Tuesday to work out? Assuming they will log back in after to complete work

Just fire their lazy asses for them to be stranded in a shitty job market and hire recently laid off BB employees who are undoubtedly desperate.

OP you seem like the problem here

turns out most people don’t wanna work for an insecure hardo 

I’m also going to guess you’re not a big goer of the gym yourself

Are your associates affluent kids from good backgrounds, if so they have no reason to care. Hire more PSGs

This is something that needs to be addressed quickly. Get in someone’s face and tell them to get it done. If they don’t respond then they aren’t interested in the job. 
 

Hire slow, fire fast. A million kids want that seat. I don’t agree with some posters, you don’t sound like a psycho type A guy, the stuff you are asking for us pretty basic. 

I agree with you 100% (VP in PE here) and have experienced the same issue with my juniors. Apparently, attending personal dinners on a weekday is more important than attending advisor calls or addressing a time sensitive matter that a partner specifically asked for. 

Most of my peers at other firms are experiencing it as well. It's just supply and demand tbh. Over the past few years, there has been a sizeable jump in opportunities on the buyside while the talent pool has shrunk as more bankers have pursued tech / entrepreneurship / other opportunities. A lot of people were also able to raise first-time funds in the past 2-3 years which wasn't as easy prior to the pandemic. My guess is some of these funds will shut down over the next 4-5 years which will change the supply/demand dynamics back in the employers favor and change this type of associate behaviour. Look at what's happening to the tech sector after hearing many programmers/software engineers brag about working 3 jobs at once and still having time for SoulCycle / travelling all over the world / etc. 

It sounds like you do have some bad associates and I’ve definitely witnessed some similar stuff amongst juniors at my firm (ignore the title, I’m a senior associate at an UMM that hires analysts as well as associates out of banking).

Honest question though, along the lines of what someone alluded to above with PE not being the path it once was. Do you ever wonder if the value of the marginal hour of work has just come down super meaningfully in this industry? The reality in the UMM space in my experience is that everything is banked, been owned by multiple sponsors for the last decade, being sold in a competitive auction etc. It rarely feels like all that incremental diligence is really uncovering some unique insight that will give you an edge in these highly efficient processes that generally result in some sponsor paying a market clearing price.

The reality is the funds need to deploy all this capital, and getting deals done is a result of where partners feel they want to lean in to get something across the line. As a result, I feel a bit less motivated to go the extra mile given it’s all a bit of a dog and pony show at the end of the day.

Maybe our firm just has a shit process or the tides will turn on this dynamic if the industry isn’t able to ride a levered beta trade for the next decade. We’ll have to see.

OP sounds like he hasn't gotten laid in like 3 years jesus christ. Have you tried directly communicating? Most IBs don't teach analysts how to read minds during their stints, so its helpful if you actually verbalize your expectations rather than just bitching when they're not met. Also, go to the fucking gym. If you're mad at your associate for getting a 1hr pump in, you're a fucking pansy. If anything get in there and spot him. 

Do your associates have carry? If not, that’s a pretty big reason for a lot of it in my view. The whole notion of them being expected to be fully motivated by the fact that you do direct promo is unrealistic - I’m sure your firm like most others in PE is incredibly late to notify of if the promo is actually there and you should know that it’s always uncertain in this industry (can quickly get screwed by a lateral hire above you, etc.).

Agree with a lot of the general sentiment, but you have to realize that the world is changing and people aren’t necessarily willing to sacrifice their entire lives to pursue a PE career at this point

Tbh, and a bit off-topic from comments above, you sound like you're gonna burn out in a few years. Definitely don't sound like Partner material or "I'm gonna be doing this for the next 30 years".

People that do IB/PE for life are jacks of all trades...and masters of all trades. I.E. incredibly analytically sharp but also incredibly politically and socially cunning, finding ways to get people to do things that often people don't want to do/realize they did for you.

You wanna be the guy that the Partners look at and say "Wow this guy is always dependable/comes through....and makes it look so easy running the junior team while being a real human"  and that associates say "This guy hasn't drunk the kool-aid, is relatable and views me as an equal rather than as my boss, while getting shit done together". Whether either of those hypothetical statements would be completely true is irrelevant...but that's the perception you're going for from your seniors and your juniors.

You just kinda sound like a grindy undifferentiated execution monkey .. no offense .. with pretty low emotional EQ.

Seeing as how I’m likely going back to PE after B School this’ll bite me in the ass, but honestly it’s funny as fuck how many threads there are of butthurt VPs. 
 

Some of the things mentioned are definitely ridiculous, but I’m glad associates are taking a stand and doing what they want to do, cuz apparently y’all can’t do shit about it except complain on WSO. They haven’t ever had this much power, so it’s honestly kind of funny to see it play out. And sorry, they went to Soul Cycle because they realized that the “urgent” request had no practical urgency, and realized that the VP either (1) didn’t know that, (2) is getting way too antsy, or most likely (3) didn’t even attempt to push back with the Partner, knowing full well there was no urgency to this task, and promised that they’ll look into by the next day for no fucking reason, and then pings the associate. Thus, Associate takes it into their own hands because they don’t respect a spineless VP and forces him to stay up late to review some dumb ass piece of work that’s gonna get completely overhauled the next day when the partner changes his mind. Finally, there can be consequences for seniors not respecting juniors’ time.
 

Fundamentally different from my years getting absolutely fucking destroyed, and then when I finally get the duck out of there my VP gives me the parting feedback of “you’ve been great, but sometimes you seem unhappy.”

I love how these loser seniors complain about junior's time allocation yet they find time to come here and whine like a toddler instead of spending time with their juniors giving thorough instructions on how they want analyses done.  You are the problem - take a look in the mirror buddy.  No wonder everyone is leaving

hire more immigrants. they'll work 24/7 for this money. for an American from rich family with good background and work experience $300-400k is not unimaginable. they know they can find something similar if they get fired, so they don't feel scared to push back.

I'm an AS2 in MF PE. I was in one of the last pre-COVID / WFH analyst classes in banking. I'll caveat my post by saying that it's possible the VP is too much of a hardo and the Asso is also lazy.

I've noticed that the WFH era of banking analysts is significantly worse from a hard work/willingness to grind perspective. I think your first job honestly puts a standard on what you believe work norms are in this industry. This is exacerbated by weak recruiting standards at most of the top firms, especially the ones that come off as "nice". By that I mean, if you go to work for Apollo, BX, or KKR (not a comprehensive list) you kind of know what you are getting into but if you go to work at one of the other large PE firms that have a friendlier atmosphere, there's a higher chance that someone who looks great on paper sifted through the cracks. I can say this firsthand by experiencing three on-cycle recruiting processes since I started. The model tests have gotten easier (some are no longer a model and instead you are supposed to find errors, the amount of the template that's completed is higher, etc.). So you have a generation of associates whose first job experience was relatively easy (yes banking during COVID was hard but it also wasn't hard because as much as you worked, you also didn't have to show up in person to early meetings after a late night and you could take a break during the day vs. having to sit at your desk to look busy or go for a 15-20 min walk max to clear your head in Midtown) and who had lower hurdles to jump over to get their PE jobs.

The interview questions can vary a lot by the candidate as well as most PE firms have the mandate to increase diversity in their ranks from LPs. I won't say that diverse candidates are worse at the job at all but I will say that the chance you hire an Asian / Indian male who isn't proficient in accounting, modeling, etc. is much lower. Not to say those are the best associates either as executive presence and other soft skills vary a lot from person to person but you know that some people can just get the job done even if they aren't VP material off the bat.

I'm noticing this lack of interest in the job with some analysts I work with as well in OP's defense. I end up having to spend 2-3x the amount of time teaching/fixing / explaining how to do things on fairly basic tasks, which while I find frustrating, I understand because I was probably also annoying to work with when I started banking out of college as well. What's more frustrating is when you discuss a deadline for fairly basic work that comes in late or just isn't completed on a Friday afternoon (pre-6pm) and then done on Monday morning the following week. I don't like to think I'm difficult to work with and I enjoy my life outside of my work hours, however, I don't really know what to do when someone you are supposed to coach/manage decides to log-off at 5/6 pm on weekdays and doesn't work at all on the weekends. I don't require weekend work and definitely don't create fake deadlines unless someone more senior asks for something but when you start out you are going to be slow and so sometimes weekday work spills into the weekends or a little later at night. But after a few months of that you get faster and then you can fully control your schedule. I sympathize with OP on the lack of work ethic in recent grads.

Broadly though, I think anyone who is working in this industry should feel lucky to be here. A lot of the attitude of not willing to put in the time to do a good job is a sense of entitlement. There's no other job in the world that pays this well (outside of SWE / Tech PMs but that's likely to change). If you aren't willing to make that trade, then you should find a career that's more aligned with your ideal work-life balance. To think that you deserve to get paid 6x the median family wage in the U.S. and also not work harder for it feels kind of entitled. I know this is going to be a fairly unpopular opinion but you live with the choices you make. I think someone earlier in this thread referenced a social contract about what the employer offers vs what the employee offers. The other side of the contract is that this job affords a nicer lifestyle than most other jobs in the world so is it really that crazy that there are more stringent requirements to do it?

Ignore title, currently VP in UMM fund. Most glaring degradation of talent is lack of technical / modeling skills on the job where PE firms are essentially doing the entire finance training / ramp up process for their first year associates. At banks, that responsibility used to fall to 2nd / 3rd year analysts where 1st years would learn through observation of modeling, deck creation, ideation, ask questions, and generally learn what it means to work hard by first owning simple workstreams and ramping up into more complex aspects of the job. Remote work / WFH has absolutely set back the incoming classes putting much more pressure on PE firms to train these people up just to get to an average outcome. The fact of the matter is that PE VP's on a small 3-4 person deal team cannot generally handle the full workload of deal timelines + the invest the time to coach and train up first year assos in real-time on a deal. We've had to begin double / triple staffing assos just to give them an environment where they can learn with low / no stakes at the outset and aiming to hire 25-40% above our capacity needs knowing the throughput will be signficantly lower.

One data point: our HH has represented that model fail rates have increased from ~50% historically to 75-85% over past year or so. We toned down our case study signficantly to make easier for this exact reason and our own fail rates have gone up from ~40% historically to 85% in a fairly large same size over the past 2 months. The drop off perfectly coincides with the first IB classes that were fully remote to a tee and is a sample size of thousands of model tests administered annually.

I don't think lower pass rates on an easier case study means these individuals lack intellect or drive to do the job, they just simply do not know how to do the job at higher rates than pre-COVID. This puts a lot more pressure on mid-ranks to cover that gap knowing that lack of asso talent is not a valid excuse for poor or late work to partners...

Like most things that are discussed on this forum, there is likely a middle ground here.

I want to start by saying I managed incoming analysts a bit at my BB since we were so understaffed post-COVID (I joined pre-COVID) and played associate a lot. When I was in PE, I didn't really manage anyone besides interns (we had two--one go-getter and one who was a bit more aloof / worked less hard). Also will add that in my time as an analyst / associate I was top bucket / above target at each review, so hopefully means I get a bit of credit with what I say below.

First -- I think a lot of the complaints are fair, but could be quickly addressed via conversation rather than a long rant on WSO. For example:

• I never realized it was poor form to be off video on calls; obviously, depended on the context of the call (an internal deal team catch-up vs. a legal DD call -- obviously be camera on if your VP / Partner are on for the deal to catch-up but do you need to be on camera for a DD call).
  • Main reason I'd want to be camera off is so I could multi-task and work on more pressing items, not to scroll on my phone
  • When I started my latest role, I was told early on when I was expected to be on video and when not -- my point: correct the behavior early on through a easy, low-key comment on how the associate should join on video. People don't just assume the right expectations right away, need to be coached
• Again, context matters here, but I'm frankly surprised about the amount of pushback I saw to someone working out during dinner time
  • Yes, if you are waiting on partner review / comments to get a deck out 24 hours before IC, then all your plans should be off or at the very least you should be within a 5 minute response window; I don't think anyone here disagrees with that
  • But, why is it a big deal if someone wants to work out at 6pm and finish the rest of the days work at 7pm when they finish (again, if not rushing to get something out)?
    • Anyone who has ever consistently worked out knows working out right before bed is ineffective as its hard to get your body up for the task, and on the backside it keeps you up longer as it messes with circadian rhythms; having said that, I had plenty of midnight (or later) workouts once we got something out (moreso in banking than PE)
• Asking for timelines is very fair. Sometimes it just involved asking what to work on first so you can create a to-do list.
  • Context matters (again), but ASOs asking what to prioritize isn't the same thing as pushing back
• If associates don't get carry, they just really aren't that incentivized to buy into the firm. I understand your firm promotes from within but what is the timeline? 2+ years as ASO, 2+ years as Sr ASO? After doing 2 years of banking, it's hard to sign up for 4 more years of grinding to finally get carry / be incentivized / be part of the team
  • I reached this point myself --> once I realized I didn't want the lives of my VPs, I focused less on earning a promotion (my shop was more 2 and out though, to be fair), and just getting my work done at a reasonable time, while taking a bit of time for myself each day (namely, to work out)
  • I no longer had an incentive besides the bonus --> a one-time event that was heavily taxed so the incremental penalty of being at / below target was minimized
    • When you don't have an incentive and are working in a negative work environment, hard to enjoy your work
• I understand associates shouldn't expect to plan weeknight dinners that often, but are they allowed to at all?
  • I never planned dates / dinners until I was a second year ASO, but the first time I did it was a first date and I was asked to leave to go home and work on something (it was not that urgent, for a small add-on deal) at 8pm on a Thursday. This was one of the first times I pushed back, and said I wouldn't be able to work on it until 10pm that night because I had plans. VP originally said he was busy too, but when I said I needed 2 hours apparently he wasn't that busy because he logged on immediately and did it.
    • While I was thankful for him doing it, it created a certain level of mistrust because he clearly wasn't busy if he couldn't wait to hop online. Nonetheless I thanked him for covering the next day and explained why I was busy; he said he was okay with it
  • One trend I notice is that you mention they should take their dinners on their weekend but in the same post you claim about associates trying to plan work around their weekends --> again, context matters, but if they aren't allowed to prioritize personal plans on the weekdays OR weekends, then are they allowed to at all?
  • I agree with you that the pay levels imply that you will need to be on call for most, if not all of the week, but I do think most associates expect a slightly better lifestyle than banking
• What does your WLB look like when you are and are not on a live deal? My favorite VPs would be much more respectful of my time when we weren't on anything live; with that said, one of my PortCo's was always looking at add-ons so I was always on a 'live deal' in other VPs point of view. When you are always ON its harder to differentiate between the real fire drills and the false fire drills (so added communication helps)
• I think PE firms brought some of this on themselves with recruiting early --> remote work has meant less training so now you are hiring based mostly on resume and interview skill, nearly 2+ years in advance of the start date
  • When you get recruited this early, then hear nothing from your firm until you start (similar to what happened with me), why are you expected to feel part of the team rather than a resource?
    • I.e., no happy hours or coffee chats with current ASOs or VPs while I was in IB. I was expected to hit the ground running after being incredibly burnt out during banking (I was asked to start ASAP after finishing banking)
    • No training at all and was frequently reemed out in my first 3-6 months for making mistakes; has to be some learning curve, right? Getting yelled at makes no one happy and certainly doesn't incentivize staying at the firm
  • Remote work has allowed people to create better WLB; this is a PRO but has led to some cons, mainly response time / accountability
    • Communicating expectations early on about when you are expected to respond is key here, if there is a clear rule in place and someone is still choosing to break it, you know they are either purposely ignoring it or may be personally struggling with the workload (not always coming from insubordination)
• Do you try to spend time in culture-building activities with ASOs? Making work seem like more than just getting assigned stuff to do, rinse, repeat, sleep, and actually trying to cultivate a tolerable work place?
  • Again, if ASOs are feeling like a cog in the machine, they aren't going to be enthused by a potential promo in 4 years; rather, getting their work done as fast as possible so they can get sleep / workout / try to see friends
• This may be controversial, but a lot of associates come into PE thinking it will be better than IB. If PE firms were more upfront about expectations, this may help attract better candidates
  • For me, I regret doing on-cycle because I didn't have time to diligence my firm enough; would've preferred to go somewhere smaller where culture was more important
    • I have friends from school and IB that are still in PE and they would often tell me my firm had bad culture compared to theirs
  • In your defense, if a new associate is completely unwilling to put the job first for at least a month at a time (on a new live deal), then you are right that they shouldn't be in the industry
    • I personally have noticed less candidates are interested in this going forward and are okay earning less to have a better WLB. Don't think that's a bad thing, but doesn't mean you should get a PE job and just slack
• Personally, I began taking a bit more of a step back when I became a second year, and found my work product actually improved. I think there is a balance from forcing yourself to be online 24/7 and setting boundaries that should be explored
  • If ASOs are never getting breaks, then I see why they'd want to take as many chances for breaks as possible
• Completely agree with your point on admin calls
  • I'd straight up ask my VP if he wanted me to schedule or if I could go through his admin. Sometimes I could go through the admin and other times it did require a finer touch. 
• On Ubers -- my firm did not have a easy way for ASOs to expense things; it made more sense for VPs to call Ubers for that reason (as they had corporate cards). Just playing Devil's advocate here, but maybe associates don't want to book things as they have to put it on their personal card? Given the unsteady nature of the comp, cash flow management can be harder in Tier 1 cities.
• There are definitely things that your associates are lagging at; I do believe you there. I think when you have these conversations you have to be upfront with them
  • I had one of these meetings with one VP at my PE firm; he thought I was checking out on him but it's actually because I was grinding on another live deal; good EQ / communication should be able to address this
    • I don't want to get too specific on this one, but he titled the meeting as if it would be a normal course diligence planning session, then sprung it on me that he wasn't pleased with my job performance. I felt completely blindsided and frankly disrespected by this approach, when I brought up how busy I was on the other deal he didn't believe me. He went to the staffer behind my back and tried to get my taken off that deal, to which the staffer (thankfully) said to the VP that he'd have to do more work to cover me (this was for a small add-on)
• Brings me to another point --> associates really aren't incentivized to work on port co work that they didn't get to invest in / do the deal for
  • Have no incentive on the exit, so it makes sense why ASOs would push back on these
  • Starts to feel like banking 2.0 where you are just processing stuff, which frankly I get why that causes a negative response
• The worst part of the job for an ASO is not being able to control his / her own schedule. Is there anywhere / any way you can find ways to let them have a bit of control?
  • This again makes PE feel like banking, which really is a bummer as an associate who has already grinded for years
• Are you asking ASOs to do things that you don't know how to do? One of my VPs would always do this and tell me to ask another associate how to do it--this would make us all angry and create a negative flywheel effect

I definitely typed a lot up here and really most of it is pro-ASO (not sure if that is fair, I'll admit). I don't mean to take sides (since some of the stuff you mentioned is very ridiculous), but it's unclear what steps were taken to clear things up with ASOs. Could you have an all-hand VP-ASO meeting to address some of the red flags and implement best practices? Has there been one-on-ones where these were brought up? 

Associates want to feel apart of the team, but when it's often left to the incentive of the fund itself it becomes difficult. I get that when you were an associate you may have been more gung-ho about the job, but frankly it may just be an industry shift that requires a bit more hand-holding / apprenticeship type management to get associates up to speed. Some people have the view that "it's just a job" and lack the overall desire / buy-in for the fund that VPs and up often do, since so much of their comp is tied to performance.

Honestly this seems to be a product of the long quarantine and WFH environment. It’s certainly not limited to finance. People are struggling to find meaning and consequently their work suffers.