How are women treated in IB?
I’m a finance student from Edinburgh uni interested in IB. I have heard and read a lot of stuff about how analysts and associates are treated in IB. Most of them were from men. Would like to know any experiences from women? Not the hours and stuff. I have come across so many men looking down at women whenever they say they want to get into IB or work in finance. It’s pretty annoying but I guess that doesn’t make them men. They’re boys. Anyways, any women pov on this?? Or if y’all heard anything or have opinions feel free to share. Would love to know if it’s any different or better or worse :))
Being a woman is a strong advantage to get into IB. Being from the University of Edinburgh isn't lmfao
Extremely strong advantages:
1) Never getting laid off unless severe performance issues or severe violation of HR policy
2) Guaranteed promotion (at least til VP 3 level transitioning into Director)
3) Guaranteed good bonuses because most banks will try to retain you (unless your bank isn't doing too well and not having the budget)
4) Guaranteed placement into the most coveted groups (FSG, M&A, LevFin, TMT, etc). You can always see best exit/lifestyle groups always have higher women/men ratio than other groups
Disadvantages:
1) Most junior women I know tend to have some beef with/from women senior bankers. This is 10 out of 10 cases so just watch out for that. A woman's biggest competitor is another woman. I know a team at my firm where 2 women don't talk to each other. Another team there's 4 women and they were split into 2 cliques of 2.
2) It could be a disadvantage if your VP/ED/MD is attracted to you but you don't reciprocate, that's when the negative discrimination starts to happen. You'll notice it when a Director/MD openly flirts with you. With that being said, if your VP/ED/MD behaves that way (i.e sexually frustrated), do you really want to be there? That's just an extreme example and uncommon case. Aside from that you shouldn't have to worry.
Idk I read this in my head with a women’s voice. Seemed pretty straight forward not someone speaking for someone else.
Probably the best comment on this post without moaning about what I said hahaha!! Thank you :))
Me: GPT... do you figure this writer is a man or women?
**Copy/Paste the above**
GPT Answer:
"Based on the context provided, it seems that the author might be a man. The reasoning includes a potential outsider perspective on women's dynamics in the workplace and an assumption of external observation rather than personal experience. The specific reference to senior women's interactions and the remark about negative discrimination related to attraction suggests a perspective that may be more common among men observing women's experiences rather than experiencing them firsthand. However, without additional context or explicit information, this remains a guess and not a definitive conclusion."
...Maybe we should outsource the IQ AND the EQ to AI...
yes I wrote that and I'm a man. Just wanted to provide unbiased perspective. My SB/MS ratio doesn't lie lol
I beg to differ based on my experience working in a BB IB team in NYC.
- Women need to constantly perform equal to peers regardless of their life phase; there's always pressure to perform equally.
- In the current economy, I've seen several high-performing women and men lose their jobs. RIF and layoffs are the new normal and don't guarantee anyone protection based on gender.
- Women at my bank always supported one another and were never just competitors. I've had several women mentors and admired many females in leadership roles.
IB is a high-performance, high-expectations industry. While being a woman might help you get your foot in the door, I beg to differ that anyone can succeed without strong performance, regardless of gender. I hope this helps answer some of your questions.
Cheers to you for being at a bank where women support one another and has a fair layoff / RIF practice. I beg to differ. I do agree you have an easier time getting the job, but the benefit multiplies out once you're actually in the job. This is a common theme across my firm, my friends at BB, and a handful at EBs:
1. Never getting yelled at (unless you work with woman MD)
2. Guaranteed great bonuses regardless of performance
3. Hiring ratio M/F of 50/50, but RIF ratio is M/F 90/10
4. Some terrible coasting women ASO2 make VPs like nothing, while some dudes have to do AN3 or ASO4
5. Always more girls in the best groups such as FSG
completely inaccurate - source: women in IB
my best mentors are senior women. also have seen that most of our lay offs affect women in our group at least. would say it only helps when firms want to hire a class that is 50% women, but that never happens anyway.
All true but if you are not more than 15lbs overweight it’s not uncommon for your superior to be into you (and frustrated if you don’t reciprocate - not used to rejection) … so good luck trying to simply work when your superiors are simply wanting to f*ck
People look down on women in every field. Law, politics, medicine, education, tech, you name it. It’ll happen whatever path you take, so you might as well pursue whatever you want.
In my experience, outright misogyny is pretty rare. It’s more common for guys to say something that’s enough to make you feel uncomfortable and unwelcome, but not enough to get them in trouble with H.R. The best response in these cases is to joke back, and to hit them with some of the same infuriating bs advice that’s offered to women (calm down, get your emotions under control, you’re being illogical, is it that time of the month, have you tried yoga / a gratitude journal / self care / etc.) They’ll knock it off quick. Keeping close to good bosses (there are some decent ones) will help you as well.
Remember that it’s not about you, who you are, or anything that you’ve said or done, but about the threat that you pose to insecure men. The fear, as I understand it, is that if you can provide for yourself, they won’t be needed. It’s easier to blame you for whatever friction they have in their lives.
I’d love to tell you that this is only a finance thing, and that avoiding banking would keep you safe, but that would be a lie. It’s everywhere. Given that it’s unavoidable, but also manageable, do what you want. Play your own game, and f*ckin’ rip it.
Edit. This really hit a nerve with you guys. In the last 24h, I’ve been called (in no particular order)
- Crazy
- Uneducated
- Unfuckable (twice)
- A femcel
- A fucking miserable femcel
- A feminazi
- She-zilla
- A dumb bitch
The last one was from a guy who says he respects women. It came through last night while I was listening to a podcast and making dinner for my family.
Thats low, even by Internet standards.
Edit Edit: Some clever new “incoming” name-calling:
- Toxic
- Horrible attitude
- An object for men to piss on (where the heck did you even get this?)
Broheim, while there are some good dudes in here, there are also some truly psychotic creeps. A lot of them. Overall, I remain unconvinced of the latter’s inner confidence and sense of self-worth, to say nothing of their mental acuity or fitness to walk out of the d*mn house. You’ll also understand my skepticism of anyone who claims to treat women as equal peers, yet is cool with calling them dumb bitches, unfuckable, fucking miserable femcels, and so on. Is that really who you want to be?
Didn’t read past the first sentence. This is crazy. Women are looked down on in every field? I respect women I come across who are my professional equals equally. Women doctors “looked down on”? Women in business “looked down on”? Women teachers?
I’ve only seen the opposite.
Try reading past the first sentence, dollface.
Womp womp.
Thanks BigTiddyGoth
Anytime.
Hate to sound so negative, but you sound like a fucking miserable femcel. Don’t know why there are so many of these in high-finance.
If you make hating men your entire personality and carry yourself like that everyday, you can’t get mad when men don’t want to accept your feminist shit-sandwiches.
Don’t think most guys care that women pull in the same money, but we do care when we are continuously barraged with this she-zilla horseshit.
You’re cute when you’re angry.
Yep there's loads. Probably to do with how women rarely date downwards so the pool of available men is very small for them since a lot of those similar earning men prefer women who don't work an intense job.
Looks like I need to implement your advice on some of them here
Thank you!!
20 to 1 odds this is a man
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I'm assuming this is a troll post given your name and the post history.
If not, big yawn. Couldn't be a less educated take. We are in a time where women have material advantages over men in the same career in every level. The "diversity" virtue signalling has made this so.
I only need to point to the % women in new junior banking classes and intern groups or point to the number of MD promotes at major banking institutions.
Please leave your nonsense rhetoric off this forum.
Do you actually think that? Fascinating.
Uneducated? That’s funny coming from someone from Cass. Cheers!
who hurt you lmao? Don’t know many guys fitting the archetype you described. We don’t give a fuck what’s in your pants we just want to do our jobs, get paid, and go home or hang out with our friends/gfs. Maybe if you feel this way the issue lies with you — I’m sure if you drop the femenazi shit your perspective will shift.
Night, sweetheart.
Perfect example of someone who wants to play victim without presenting facts. Because when facts are entered into the conversation your opinion tends to not make sense anymore.
I wonder why would anyone wants to marry you
What kind of rando anonymous WSO troll calls a BigTiddyGoth unfuckable? And even with my low bar, I have to say dumb bitch just lacks creativity. That's seriously low effort.
You trolls be slippin, back to 4chan for something more creative.
I fully agree with this, It sucks what women have to go through in the industry. Coming from an avid male-feminist myself (can i hit?)(6'4 btw)
I’ve seen this a good amount from clients as well. They take my advice more seriously just because I’m a dude, even when the woman on the team is more senior.
I’ve never seen a normal woman called that. It happens rarely in college and it’s even more rare in the workplace. You can easily get away with saying something to a guy, usually not the reverse. To be honest if people are outright calling you that then you might be giving them a reason to because it’s that rare
You can see everything I’ve said. What do you think is the justification for people on this thread to call me “dumb bitch” or “an object for men to piss on”?
Of course I think I’m normal, but it’s hard to be unbiased in this regard. Is anything here so wildly off-kilter that these names are ok? Are these names ever justified? The times that you’ll see me say “night, Sugar”, is when someone calls me a bitch, crazy, and other stuff that the mods have since removed. I struggle to see how these terms are ever justified, so this is genuine curiosity.
I will bet money that BigTiddyGoth is a man.
Are you telling me the woman IB VP at my bank is posting on the toilet under this username on this site? Statistically impossible
You mistake rarity for impossibility.
You're getting shit b/c this forum is full of the exact men you are talking about - but you're absolutely right.
Thanks.
Pure conjecture, but it’s possible that some guys see women getting more interviews during recruiting or other visible evidence of gender-based favoritism, and feel that it negates how hard they’re working. Being resentful in that case is understandable. What they don’t tend to recognize are all of the ways that women are held back, either deliberately or through indifference and institutional inertia.
Still, I’m not sure that they recognize how name-calling reads like deep deep insecurity.
A follow up to your edit.
Unfuckable as very rude. Most are fuckable.
Marriage material? Damn marriage is hard enough, without the… ahem… character you have here.
Everyone is treated the same if they do their part.
The fact that you had to ask this convinces me that you won't be enjoyable to work with. I guess if so many of us bankers are boys, then you are a girl because you are making wild assumptions.
I can also tell you are not getting a job with that mindset, lol. IB spots are rare and nobody wants to deal with that attitude.
Anywhere in finance you will be surrounded by men. If you have an issue with that, then cry about it.
Not true. Whether because there are dipshits in the group (deliberate) or because the ratio skews (not deliberate), everyone is not treated the same. You actually sound insufferable.
Please read my comment before responding to it.
Everyone should be treated fairly, in theory, **if they do their part.**
Sounds like the people you work with are insufferable and have terrible team values. My firm is focused on doing whatever necessary for the preservation of the common good.
Seen as eye candy generally, though there are exceptions. This is not an industry you want to be in as a woman.
.
Depends… are you hot?
I would recommend focusing on the culture of the group/bank. That’s helped me navigate different environments and narrow down where I can see myself working. Example: Is this group clear with communication and expectations? This and other aspects of the culture help determine how you will be received in the group/bank and your progress. I’ve generally found that culture is a great benchmark for predicting your experience as a woman in any role. This is from my own experience and hope it helps!
It is very VERY group dependent. Take the feedback on your post with a grain of salt, the actual number of incels / virgins who get a seat are much lower than you think.
Have seen it range from subtle misogyny, not knowing how to treat you like a colleague versus a woman to just being one of the group. I'm obviously a dude and there are probably things I don't notice that a woman would pick up, but that's what I've seen with my "man eyes" if that makes sense.
I think things get harder as you move up. Remember sitting next to a director who worked through basically all her pregnancy, fired off "will not be available briefly" emails as she went into labor and bounced back very shortly after. No mat leave.
If it's a male heavy group, I say give them the benefit of the doubt and some time to adjust. Be firm when your boundaries are tested etc. etc.
In all honesty? You have a wild advantage when it comes to getting the job.
Once on the job? Doesn’t matter what your gender is as long as you get the job done. If anything, you still have a leg up because you’re a female.
So I guess your point relates to the “finance bro” culture. This is probably a bit the case everywhere but bear in mind that most banks have a 50% hiring ratio now so it’s actually pretty mixed at the junior level.
The question now is do you like the job and environment you’ll be working in? I don’t think that would be hugely bank dependent, although you may prefer a bank with more female seniors, but wouldn’t be too focused on that tbh. You’ll be fine anywhere (assuming you’re a fit for the job)
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You’re unfortunately not gonna get a great answer to this on a forum that’s probably 95% men
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When it comes to layoffs being a female definitely has its advantages. Have seen a lot of my male colleagues at my BB get laid off even though they were clearly better than some of the females I’ve worked with.
That said, I’ve worked with a lot of females who were absolute killers, so don’t take this comment as me downplaying females in finance in general.
Just a small anecdote
Reality is that if you perform, it doesn't matter who you are.
What actually happens is preferential treatment of people who fit the IB's diversity quota.
These quota's have had the opposite impact of what was intended -- I give more credit to the people who aren't "diverse" because there are fewer available spots for them to get in and I assume everyone who is "diverse" gets in due to preferential treatment.
Obviously this isn't always true but that's the way the current recruitment process has been setup and I'm not alone in thinking like this.
I'd love to work for a VP like this, who gives credit where it's due.
I would also add having done this for a long time that given “me too” a lot of these guys are actually afraid of women and don’t know how to interact with them. It can be comical. Aside from that, MDs are dbags to everyone (maybe slightly less to women) regardless of gender.
..
Women are treated with the utmost respect and professionalism. There is an element of kid gloves for example women don't get yelled at. They have a cakewalk to the top if they're willing to do the work. We live in the age of women.
My advice would be to work really hard to secure a spot first, and then once you’re working, do not LOOK for ways in which the women are treated differently from the men. As others have commented already, it’s very group dependent. Neither group I’ve worked in has treated women any differently than men, to the best of my knowledge.
The sad reality is that these days, many people seek out opportunities to be offended and claim to be marginalized. And yeah, there is absolutely unjust discrimination in many parts of the world. Racism is real, misogyny is real, religious discrimination is real, etc. But there are also many people who have latched on to this idea that anything and everything that COULD possibly be interpreted as discrimination SHOULD be interpreted as discrimination. Back in college, the number of times I heard “micro aggression” in reference to someone innocently using a wrong word or being a little socially unaware was insane. You will know if you are being treated poorly in IB because of your gender. Don’t actively SEEK opportunities to interpret something as such. The good news is, once you break into “high finance,” your ability to move around firms is greatly increased, so if you do happen to wind up in a group in which you are treated significantly different as a woman, switch jobs. I promise you there are plenty of firms that have substantial female leadership and there is little to no difference in how men are treated vs women.
Continually seeking out chances to be offended will literally warp your perception of things, and you need as much focus and clarity on the actual work you’re doing. Like I said, if there is something truly wrong, you’ll know it.
It's definitely not easy but this is not an easy job lol. Most girls who enter IB are naturally a little bit less agreeable than the girls who your team usually encounter (i.e. their Hinge dates) and I find that this can cause a bit of friction with some more hardo guys. Being sexualised often is something that just happens - I've been asked if I can do the splits, hounded about who I'm grabbing dinner/lunch by kinda possessive male colleagues, touched on the sides/back at events, been stared at all the time etc. I'm not going to lie, how you look is important in a client-facing job where all your colleagues are men, but presenting more femininely, especially as a younger woman, will make people take you less seriously - it is a delicate balance.
I would say that it is pretty difficult to make other female friends in IB - you will naturally get pitted against eachother and there are way less of us so the odds of you liking someone are worsened. Women in senior positions will usually hate you because they see you as competition.
Agree with exec women being harder on you than exec men… HOWEVER… I have made 2 amazing girlfriends who are also analysts and it has made all the difference. It’s so easy to get wrapped up and find your worth through your job, so having 1 or 2 solid coworkers you can trust makes all the difference.
However, take this with a grain of salt, everything you say can be used against you… so speak like your MD can hear you (I’m serious so many analyst and interns get dinged for this). Also, be yourself. Don’t try to overcompensate just because your a girl, do your job, stay lowkey, and be helpful when necessary. This goes for any gender in any industry that’s demanding.
I agree, but there’s one thing that I push back on a bit. Because of their scarcity, there’s a lot of pressure on senior women to be The Official Representative of All Femininity. It might not be that they see you as competition, it might just be that they have the same pressures and stresses as the male seniors.
Totally agree - I think everyone is competitive in this job regardless of gender, but I more get frustrated that I need to be the token “senior” woman and need bring everyone together, etc. Quite frankly I don’t have any interest in that and my male counterparts don’t need to do that so why should I have to. I just want to do my job and go home (and continue doing my job ha).
The same as men, like shit.
Yeah feel the same
Sex has nothing to do with it. People who can perform are respected. People who can’t are tossed to the side and eventually weeded out.
I think if your technical skills and knowledge were on point this wouldn’t even be a concern. Get your foot in the door and then worry about it.
Sex has nothing to do with it. People who can perform are respected. People who can’t are tossed to the side and eventually weeded out.
I think if your technical skills and knowledge were on point this wouldn’t even be a concern. Get your foot in the door and then worry about it.
Sex has nothing to do with it. People who can perform are respected. People who can’t are tossed to the side and eventually weeded out.
I think if your technical skills and knowledge were on point this wouldn’t even be a concern. Get your foot in the door and then worry about it.
Sex has nothing to do with it. People who can perform are respected. People who can’t are tossed to the side and eventually weeded out.
I think if your technical skills and knowledge were on point this wouldn’t even be a concern. Get your foot in the door and then worry about it.
Sex has nothing to do with it. People who can perform are respected. People who can’t are tossed to the side and eventually weeded out.
I think if your technical skills and knowledge were on point this wouldn’t even be a concern. Get your foot in the door and then worry about it.
It's pretty much the same as with guys, not much difference there. The tough part is, I'm the only woman on our team. It often feels like the guys stick together without really including me.
As a man I agree that we tend to lock ourselves off from women and form our own small circles or groups. However, women do the same thing. So it is your job to somehow break into those cliques and learn to socialize with them.
I'm not worried or complaining, but it does feel strange when they joke about 'have you cheated on your girlfriend' or make tedious jokes about dating.
As the only woman in my group, I can relate. And you can act as if it doesn't bother you, but at the end of the day, when it's time for subjective reviews by your peers, it does matter.
Yeah I understand,
but I often feel that I can't develop the same level of closeness with guys as men seem to achieve with one another men.
They are treated great most times
You almost never get yelled at as a woman. As a guy, it can most certainly happen in a tense situation.
I worked on a capital markets floor and can attest to this first hand
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