Saw the post on liquidity. 10% of the bank with a focus on juniors? Anyone have any insight into other banks? I know they all will follow suit/make changes throughout the year.
Hypothetical: Say you could guarantee upper-middle bucket every time you got reviewed/compd. No way you would be on chopping block, no? Assuming all else is kosher.
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More curious about the “random” factor. We all know DSol is not the most competent at his job, but it would be one of the stupidest moves ever by a CEO to allow for random layoffs.
Most likely saying that publicly to ward off any discrimination lawsuits
Not a comment directed at GS, but large companies as a whole:
It amazes me that large companies have to think about this; I would assume most are pretty good at documenting all performance-related issues and would not just use this as the main way of firing. With that they I imagine would be pretty well protected at in a court of law.
What was the comment he made in terms of it being random? Tried googling, couldn't quickly find it. Sounds like an insane thing to say.
Whoever said it was random is bottom bucket and getting laid off.
Half joking but in all seriousness, the layoffs I've been through always were based on standing/ranking. Maybe some groups hit harder than others, but it's always bottom bucket first.
What’s bottom bucket? Like least important divisions?
Thanos would kindly disagree.
Was it yesterday or next Wednesday?
Next
Performance at the junior level can be subjective. Juniors don’t bring in revenue. It’s difficult to rank who has the best financial analysis or ppt skills out of hundreds of analysts or rank modeling and management skills out of hundreds of associates and vps
I don't agree with this. I can tell you from first-hand experience that there is a significant quality/performance difference in juniors and if I was told to reduce headcount it would not be difficult at all to pick the dead weight to trim.
What I am unsure of is how they make decisions between the levels. Like do we get rid of the 2 lateral VPs that everybody on the floor hates to work with? Or the recently promoted MD that's struggling to get clients to even take meetings? Or do we get rid of like 10 analysts and associates that we know are leaving to the buy side in 6 months anyway? Or all of the above?
Guess we'll find out next week.
I think it is always helpful for people to hear the mistakes that get them on the chopping block. Would you care to share what you are seeing analysts do that are getting them in hot water?
I think it's easy to rank the extremes. Some junior analysts are clearly shit, and some are clearly rockstars. The middle 80% are much, much harder to sort out.
Shouldn't be that difficult to cut the bottom 5-10% or so of performers. Might be a lot harder to identify the bottom 20%.
From friends who have been analysts at GS, most groups tended to be 50% really good analysts and 50% that were largely nepotism hires and were average at best yet often ended up getting better bonuses than the good ones actually doing the work. I'm sure it varies some by group and class.
How do you become part of those 50% good analyst like what are the characteristics
Why bother? He said the good ones aren’t getting high bonuses.
Not hard at all lmao are you high
how do you think 99% of corporate America grades performance? Most jobs and titles don’t have a metric as straightforward as P&L
great comment!
I love how the banana/shit ratio demonstrates who is WSO's target demographic.
Juniors, DON'T FEEL BAD. If you get laid off remember it is not necessarily because of the quality of your work. There is a lot of random chance in the system.
one of the worst comments I've read on this site. You can pretty much rank any profession at any rank.
How does this compare to 2008? Starting to see a lot of cuts now at a lot of places (not just banks).
Not close. 2008 was a total meltdown of the financial sector, where banks quite literally weren’t sure if they were going to go under (GS included)
This is more of a roster adjustment after massively overhiring for a deal boom that is long gone.
Like not remotely close. I understand it's hard for younger people to contextualize what a downturn looks like because we've frankly been in a 15 year bull market (with a few speedbumps), but 2008 was like EXISTENTIAL bad. By that I mean people weren't sure whether we'd have a functioning financial system / economy the week leading up to TARP being pushed through. Without question, we were looking at a great depression type scenario if the central bank / government didn't act so decisively.
I only meant in the context of cuts because it looks like analysts and junior associates may get cut this time.
comments like these make me chuckle, not b/c i don't have sympathy for those going through their first recession, but b/c how quickly we as a society have forgotten about 2008. 2008 was a massacre. imagine entire floors of ppl being let go in one morning regardless of being top bucket or not. imagine ppl losing massive chunks of net worth. we were inches away from the meltdown of the entire financial system. there were lines of graduate level educated people trying to get a job as cashiers to make ends meet.
Classic or financing heavy? Would assume financing.
Cuts typically start with under performing back-office and support staff who aren't under the main segments of the bank. It is typically easier to see who is struggling in those departments.
Del
What tangible skills do you offer as a prospect? I find it hilarious how junior bankers (or in your case, wannabe bankers) have a holier-than-thou attitude when most of your working hours are spent doing grade 9 math, mucking around in excel and aligning logos. Don't let the money get to your head - a high school student with a few months training can do your job and you're as replaceable as anyone.
-
Curious, would being recently promoted increase your chances of being safe from cuts (at least in the near term)?
if a junior gets laid off how badly would it impact their buyside recruiting if they didnt participate in on cycle?
Interestingly enough i work at GS in S&T and have not heard/sensed any fear. Just found out about these rumors of being focused on juniors etc. just now here on wso.
Wonder if markets will be impacted. My team had really solid year but who knows really.
global markets is fine
you'll be fine but your bonus pool will be nicked by the bankers lol
GS is just the start... the mass amount of over-hiring in just about every sector since the pandemic is astonishing. Shit it going to get ugly and even if the Fed pivots, things don't turn on a dime.
How is overall comp for the ones who aren’t cut impacted?
It's unusual to see layoffs focused on juniors. But I'm not that surprised either, because I've heard a lot of anecdotes over the last year or so to the following effect: "I've never seen analysts this bad, we had to hire anyone with a pulse and some of these kids aren't up to par."
I don't like to talk about people that way, but I've been hearing it a lot and it's also exactly what one would expect after 1-2 years of over-hiring. I'm sure there's been some over-hiring at the mid-levels too, but it's harder to fake a VP interview. At the analyst hiring level, the only currency is good grades from a good school, so banks can step up their analyst hiring very easily. And it appears they did. No surprise then, that they now have some people that perform below their usual standard.
I don't like characterizing generations of people as one way or the other, but yes, the hiring bar was significantly lower during the free for all of 2021 in IB. I've never seen so much pushback about returning to the office or even dressing appropriately for work - understandable because analysts could've just left whenever they wanted to other banks or even other industries. It's also interesting that people are outraged / surprised by GS; putting aside the brand power and credentials in the space (both of which are very up there), GS has NEVER cared about loyalty and always puts itself first before clients and definitely before employees. If you're going to work with GS, you have to go in eyes wide open; they typically pay under street, they work you very hard, and they're the first to make deep cuts on a whim. You will work with a lot of talented people, get great exit opps, and work on top deals. If you're going to dance with the devil, don't be surprised when you get burned.
Completely agree. Not surprising coming from a place where 1MDB, Libya Investment Authority derivatives trade, various HR cover ups of employee mistreatment, and many other things happened.
In my office we gathered all the A1s this year to tell them “you are not up to par, you need to wake up and perform”
A lot of bank analyst jobs can be automated now with python and java; not sure if we need hundreds each year. Way easier to get new grad engineers at $300k that have 10x output than $200k legacy analysts
It's almost funny because it seems to be universal, across all firms and countries. It's like a global gen-z analyst union.
Unfortunately you can't really do much about it if they all have the same attitude. It's worth considering that banking and PE is just not what it used to be, not attracting the same talent.
I'm not Gen-Z and not an analyst but am about done with MDs screaming about "back in the days, I -" yeah salaries barely moved from 2008 until last year, wanna do some math? Or have you forgotten about the time value of money?
Or MDs running sweatshops and not promoting until they're about to lose someone (resigning somehow makes you worthy for promotion).
Or allowing toxic middle guys (VPs / SVPs / EDs) to hang around. Here's a clue... if someone has to keep blaming at least half the teams / juniors that he's working with... it ain't them, it's him. But he's not getting fired, so anyone with a brain but no sponsor in IB / PE is going to leave the industry.
I'm not paid enough per hour to take shit from the senior level and also deal with juniors like that.
I feel differently about your concept of the bank having no options if analysts these days just aren't good anymore. There are things the banks can do, and they're doing it now with the layoffs. The right size of an analyst class depends on the quality of the class. If the class turns out to suck, you reduce the size of it. Money saved can be re-allocated to better performers, either at analyst level or higher, who need to step up and do more as a result of the smaller class.
And if that's a permanent condition, so be it, the pay allocation will remain permanently adjusted. Maybe we have a future of slightly smaller classes and slightly higher pay to compensate.
My guess is tech will lose its luster this year and banking will attract more smart people again.
Any word on global markets?
markets are doing better this year because of volatility. they won't be firing people in markets
This is false. Know that groups have gotten notified that they need to cut people
yes there is a list for global markets
Do you know which groups in markets will be impacted? FO or BO?
Where’s the list for global markets?
Following this thread. Quite curious to see.
anyone know what the bonus buckets are for An2 from last summer?
40, 75, 100k+
thought that was An1
Was it specific to IB or a general firmwide announcement? I can see a significant chunk of those coming from the consumer business that isn't doing so hot right now.
Is Goldman the apple of IB and what they do the others copy (US sneezes Canada catches cold sort of thing)?
-----
Knew people in firmwide strategy / IR and in addition to IBD/GM, Consumers will layoff a lot in Utah/Texas for the ops. Controllers will be hit hard as well. The safest one at least as of last week is PWM (FO, not the BO in SLC) which is largely intact.Within IBD, looks like FIG/TMT will be impacted heavily since they brought in a lot of new ppl in late '21. ANL2 and ASO1 (people joined in '21) will be on chopping board the most since they just did a full year cycle 360 performance review to evaluate.
I would assume Lev Fin / ECM are gonna get crushed too
You may want to edit the first clause for anonymity sake
He did but because you quoted it we can still see it…
Are any top bucket analysts / associates but joined laterally in 2021 / 2022 at risk?
Top bucket shouldn’t be worried anywhere but laterals in ‘21 is the target, not the laterals in ‘22. LIFO applied to folks with a full year review at this point
how would anyone know the answer to this?
By this do you mean legal, conflicts, compliance etc?
No you are confusing that for ‘control-side’.
Controllers typically serve in an accounting function, overseeing books and records.
Any ceo discussing layoffs in a year end voicemail should be removed. Period.
A nice reminder that your CEO/bank does not care about you :)
i mean, no bank out there really care about their employees, but that "happy holidays and some of you will be laid off in a couple of weeks" voice mail is some true next level shit.
Would ER be impacted by these layoffs?
Some MO teams (risk etc.) getting cut in regional offices (Texas, SLC) as well
how do you get informed that you're laid off? ID card just stops working or you get called into staffers office?
From another bank who made massive layoffs, they were mostly informed in the morning. Those who usually arrived early was informed equally early and actually left before everyone else came in.
this is helpful. how about if you arrive late (after 11am). would HR just call you over the phone instead? also logistically, do you see a calendar invite pop up on outlook, or would it be someone calling you to come into their office / conference room?
For us, people got called into the group head's office where they had a quick 15 minute convo and then they would come out, pack their stuff, and leave.
What do folks think about this? It sounds like they grew a lot during COVID so might've had greater headcount imbalance in IB than some other banks, and are notorious for as someone above said cutting on a whim soon as it might be the right move. But also would think a number of those jobs aren't coming back for a while. Be curious what % of total IB headcount this ends up being.
Seems like they definitely overhired during covid compared to other BBs, I would recommend any analysts working at GS to start printing out things your worked on today / tomorrow in case you get let go
what would be the benefit of taking those things with you?
Yeah this is epically bad advice and I would recommend people don't try stealing confidential information on their way out.
Agree with others that this is terrible advice.
Have seen careers ruined by people printing docs, forwarding emails, and doing generally cagey things when they are exiting a firm.
Everything is tracked and financial firms guard their property fiercely. If you’re printing a doc you usually would and need to work at home, fine. If you print out sensitive material, or an entire training module, or forward anything to your personal email your firm will know. Especially in times of mass layoffs.
.
Out of curiosity, what sort of severance is offered for A&A? Surely at least 3 months?
Bump
Apparently 3 months for above VP and 2 months for below VP. Brutal
Goldman’s management should be embarrassed at how they have handled this on several fronts. Just another McJob
their CEO sent a firm wide happy holiday voice mail, in which he told people there will be layoffs in the next few weeks. I think GS management is not really capable of feeling embarrassment...
I can see why one of my relatives who worked at GS hated the place over time lol.
I’m struggling to understand the strategy for conducting these layoffs … Leak massive layoffs to press a week before Christmas. Continue leaking public updates until week of, but don’t ever mention anything internally (from what I hear). Have other banks done similar?
Maybe the goal is to just hammer home lowest possible bonus expectations as people focus on keeping their job?
Bingo
The first communication was an internal voice memo from D-Sol the week before Christmas. But there hasn't been any internal announcement or anything since then, just the leaks as you mentioned.
.
Litquidity saying ECM cuts today - any confirmation?
are layoffs going to be done in the staffer/BUM's office? i already see them set up on one of the floors with a paper stuck to the glass door that says "reserved for Jan 11th"
I think you know the answer, yes.
its so public damn. thought it would be more discreet
Layoffs have started in London according to IBD Memes on Instagram
Which accounts?
@IBD_Memes
IBD M&A London started 9am. Everyone from assistants, AN2 to MD have been cut. Much larger cuts than expected. Financing cuts started recently.
Any chance we can get some rough figures? I.e 3 of 10 an2, etc?
I only know all the numbers per level for my team and one other for certain. Could give the number of cuts for each sector team though.
Half of TMT and industrial was axed more incoming
Why is industrials getting slashed I thought they had decent deal flow? TMT I understand.
Industrials hasn't been axed by halfSource: work here
NY or London?
My roommate in ECM got fired, heard 4-7 juniors at ECM got fired at random
Were first years cut?
No only AN2 and above
My roommate in ECM got fired, heard 4-7 juniors at ECM got fired at random
Any news on the real estate group in London?
anyone know how Nat Resources group fared?
Also curious
RBC > GS
Makes the 75K top bucket As1 bonus look not so bad after all
Does anyone know when Summer 2024 applications release for GS?
Read the room bruh
Read the room bro
Read the room brah
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