Associate learning curve
I'm a new associate at a top BB (GS/MS/CS/JPM) and recently underwent the finance training. I was quite surprised by how detailed and challenging even the training coursework seemed - like seriously, most of what we learned in our Corporate Buyouts & Acquisitions and Valuation courses in b-school turned up in these sessions. Also the trainer kept telling us stories about the massive models we'll be working on, even as associates, and it seemed a little daunting.
Want to hear from others out there (associates or analysts) - did you feel extremely challenged when you started? How long did it take you to "settle in"? How much time do associates spend modeling/checking models and how much is spent doing all the stuff that hovers above the modeling? How do you know if you're getting better at modeling? How good should you already be on day one?
I think I have pretty good excel/finance/acct skills but bringing it together all the time to crank these massive models, without error, requires you to be at your best all the time - I really have new found respect for what analysts do. Your opinion is appreciated..
consulting background, undergrad in hard sciences (chemistry) from top 25 private school
Ahaha why is it so important that you find out his bank?
To the OP--I fucking hate you guys (summer associates).
The summer "ass" I work with is a b-schooler and has no clue. My staffer basically put me in charge of him -- check up on his progress, teach him to do stuff, make sure he's not missing deadlines, etc... It'll probably take him another few months before he gets on his feet. He still takes two hrs to edit like 4 slides.
If you didn't have a solid corporate finance background then there will be a steep learning cover. Otherwise, this material isn't hard and shouldn't be nearly as challenging as a chemistry undergrad degree.
Good luck man.
To be brutally honest, if you're having these feelings, there's a good chance you're learning curve is going to be very steep. I'm sure there are some ex-Analysts and Analyst-to-Associate promotes in your training class, so lean on them now before your cut loose on your own.
And once in you group, don't be a douche to your Analysts and they might be willing to help teach you the ropes. Seriously, an Analyst that hates you is one of the worst things that can happen to a brand new Associate. Your projects tend to slip down the priority list and they'll just marginalize you by working directly with your VP/Director.
FYI I'm a summer too, and this guy is at least 4 years older than me.
Don't. Be. That. Guy.
Your analyst is going to save your butt. Do not treat him/her as "slave" and try to help them out as much as possible and hopefully you'll get the same in return.
Too many times I spent in banking working with summer associates who thought their sh&t didn't stink cause they went to HBS or Wharton...yet they sucked and weren't willing to do the grunt work and well..what do you know..they got laid off during the recession.
As long as you realize you've got a steep learning curve, that's half the battle not underestimating how daunting it will / can be. Good luck.
I am a hopeful associate coming from the military and fully expect this steep learning curve. One thing I learned in life, especially as a young junior officer working with senior enlisted who knew how everything got done when I was clueless, is to realize that despite any "rank" in name, you are nothing. Be humble. Work your ass off. Put aside any shame in asking what might seem like a stupid question. When its me in your shoes, I don't ever plan to leave before my analysts do. Here is something that goes a very long way when dealing with people below or at your level--"please", "thanks", and "OMFG you rock."
well put, sir.
my uncle was a e9 in the marines and said best thing young officers can do is find the enlisted marine in charge and ask how he would do things.. agree and watch them get it done... didnt step on anyones touches and the enlisted would help out the officer and they were respect each other "rank" but not lose respect
i think the assoicate analyst relationship should work the same..
Lord that is the best advice ever! Too bad it isn't widely followed. Oddly enough, banking is much like the military in that you do pointless shit because someone told you to. No rhyme or reason...just that someone who out ranks you told you too.
Don't be that person who is just handing out things to do because you want to feel empowered. You need your analysts (junior enlisted soldiers) more than you realize. Also, as someone pointed out, if you are slow and being an ass to your analyst(s) then you will get passed by. The analysts will start working with the VP/MD and you will be put out of the loop...and possibly let go eventually.
Don't be the reason an analyst has to have a sit down with an MD because the analyst smashed his phone to pieces on his desk while calling you a worthless, inefficient piece of shit to your face (true story). Good luck.
Regards
I don't care what the circumstances are, that shit is out of line.
went through the process myself. honestly, it will take you 6months to get up to speed. you'll be surprised how helpful your b-school training is in understanding concepts, how statements connect, etc. learning how the group / industry functions / does business is what takes the longest. the sooner you understand how the group runs their models / analysis, and how your specific industry values companies / makes adjustments for industry specific metrics, you'll be able to add value. in that way, it's the difference between the book learning and real-world applications of the concepts learned in the class.
in that respect, the analysts that started a couple of months before you (and more so the 2nd years) will be indispensable because of their INSTITUTIONAL knowledge. no degree, experience, etc can replace. even laterals require time to get up to speed.
assuming you have a solid foundation in the fundamentals, learn how the group operates and don't be an ass to your analysts. you should be fine.
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Love how a 25 year old talks as though he is in his 40's and been in banking for 20 years
Last comment aside because it's not really helpful commentary, just disparaging...and considering his profile says consultant don't know what firsthand experience he's really pulling from.
Successful associates are those that were personable but also hard-workers who were able to do all the work analysts could do. You have to at the end of the day, because how else are you going to be able to check work? Sure you can start abusing your analysts once your 2nd or 3rd associate, but it won't win you any help...
Analysts or first year associates may not be rainmakers in the traditional sense, but I have seen many meetings go horribly because numbers / data etc were wrong. You do not want to be that guy, because even if the analyst screwed up it is still your fault.
As you progress up the firm, the soft skills are obviously more important as it pertains to you bringing in revenue but when you're junior technicals and work productivity rule. Do not be fooled by the previous poster, there was even an associate at my bank who thought he would be a dealmaker and started calling companies and friends in Russia trying to pull in deals. Aside from him being super annoying, he was in the wrong and was let go soon thereafter.
gluck
Analysts and associates are hired with a different purpose in mind. Ask anyone in the know. Many associates never develop the technical expertise that a third-year analyst will have, and they can very well become MDs without needing to.
Technical expertise and nuances are just BS... It's when you're able to negotiate a merger agreement that clearly favors your client that you're a rainmaker... Your model is bogus and that's why it always ends up at the back of any document; it's like comfort food. When you can bring in the big fish because you're a sweet talker, then you have acquired the quality of a rainmaker, not because you can Alt E-S-V and cash sweep quicker than the next guy...
How is this relevant to the guy's original question about becoming an excellent associate? This sounds almost like those career guidebooks...
Analysts serve their purpose, but they are also straight from undergrad usually and don't necessarily see banking as a career....associates do which is the role they serve. Most banking groups actually try to retain their analysts and grow them since learning curve has already been reached and now the soft skills need to grow.
I mean the last post just doesn't sound like it's coming from experience and for that it lacks any real depth or value to the original poster who needs to know what it's like to actually be in the middle of it. Grandstanding about a lowly a 2nd / 3rd year analyst will be to your own destruction...besides I've seen analysts rock meetings with senior management while new associate sits quietly. Successful banking analysts typically go on to whatever they desire and like me hated their banking days.
At the end of the day you need to impress the VP and above in order to move up, and they are not going to spend the time training and teaching you the skills necessary to do so. Therefore you need to lean on other resources and I'm sure the person who has been there 2-3 years is going to know a lot more than you and your 2 month training program. My last post on this issue since I think i've said enough.
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How are you supposed to negotiate a merger agreement without a correct model? If it's all BS, then I guess walking into a committee at your bank to justify a valuation to acquire a company or do a IPO / Debt offering with a broken / incorrect model & valuation techniques will just be BS and not carry any weight?
Don't get me wrong, I think a lot of analysis can be put to the side and the MD who runs the show can win deals left and right, but I have also seen senior people who don't know their technicals all that well and if you're making statements / promises based on a broken model and then need to go back to your client to tell them you're wrong it's hard to be a rainmaker.
And what 1st year associate do you know that's a rainmaker? Pulling in deals? Quite confused about what you perceive the1st year assoc role to be when the MD / Director are the ones running the show.
Associates are grunts, not rainmakers. However, they are grunts who have been selected because a glimmer of rainmaking potential was seen in them, so if they earn their stripes and serve their time, and manage not to screw up and piss people off in the process, they might one day make MD/Director. Of course, if they're disagreeable, trash, technically useless or turn out to be twats, they'll get canned pretty quickly too. An associate won't become a VP without being solid on the technical side, but there's no need for them to be better than the best 2nd and 3rd year analysts.
Analysts are also grunts, except there is very little interest in whether a potential MD is lurking inside the analyst. They are there to do the heavy lifting, the dirty work no one else can be assed to do, and if they're good at it and they've passed the airport test three straight bonus seasons in a row, they are given a second round of grunt-work, except this round might turn into a Vice President promotion.
Analysts = top undergrads jumping out to private equity, hedge funds, grad school, etc after two years
Associates = investment banking lifers who could not get into investment banking as undergrads OR did not know what they wanted to do coming out of undergrad.
This is true in about 80% of cases I've seen. Associates are stuck in the long haul and don't have many viable alternatives. A star analyst has many more options. Analysts don't care if they "make it rain." If you want to be stuck living the MD life supporting a trophy wife, two kids in prep school, a golden retriever, and a summer rental in the Hamptons then congrats, buddy. Doubt many analysts have that in mind, which is why 90% of them book it out after 2-3 years.
Doesn't seem like a bad life to me...
Models are worth dick, especially to buyside clients. Agree with Mezzket. The valuation's whatever your client and your MD wants it to be. A good deal will get done regardless.
As an associate, you have to be personable AND technically sound, and a good teacher too. You're only as good as your analyst if you're to be a star associate. For you to make sense of the data, you need good, dependable numbers/research. A great analyst is worth his weight in gold. I'm not sure why the analysts here have such a chip on their shoulders, but I guess that's because I haven't worked with many summer/post-MBA associates (all the associates at my firm including myself are either analyst promotes or laterals). I learned a metric ass-ton from my associates; they often had a breadth of experience banking can't give you.
Nowdays it's alot easier to prepare yourself for Analyst/Associate training and not feel so overwhelmed once you get there. You can't take the series 7 exam but you can take a week long prep course. You can also take finance courses as a non-degree student. You can take modeling/valuation course on your own with Breaking into Wall Street or the Analyst exchange. And I think some of those wall street training companies offer mini internships so you can be even more useful coming in.
New Associates from BS don t know shit. The sooner they loose the "i come from W/HBS/UCLA...know-it-all attitude", the better.
I think it is a good point to say that valuation will ALWAYS be very close to what the MD's thinks it worth but if you don t have any technicals to back up this analysis then you ll never close a "real deal" aka with a publicly traded company.
Some of you will become MDs, and by the time you do, it will be a long time since you've ever thought about an Excel spreadsheet. You will be a different person by the time you become a rainmaker, and this is because you will be rewarded for a completely different skillset.
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