Watched it live a couple of days ago and still processing it all, what did you guys think? Personally thought it was a fantastic ending (like the whole of the show) - as a Kendall fan (for all his flaws) I was initially gutted he lost at the final hurdle, but then actually thinking about it now the ending was perfect. Would have been too easy if he’d won (and any of the others winning would have been unrealistic).
Plus as much as I like Kendall (Jeremy Strong is amazing imo) he really did snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by instantly switching into a complete asshole after being anointed, in typical Kendall fashion. Whilst he’s clearly a smart guy and could probably have run the company well (given his years of operational experience we’re told about) he just has too many character flaws that inevitably trip him up.
Also what do you guys reckon happens to him now? Reading an interview by Jeremy Strong and Jesse Armstrong, they both think that whilst Kendall is technically “free” he’s also completely adrift, and knows nothing he does will ever compare to Logan. So could well slip down the hole of addiction and despair again.
Curious to know your guys’ thoughts as I’ve read a few stupid takes on Reddit (cesspool I know lol) where people say “they all have billions, what are they upset about??” Failing to realize that’s the equivalent of saying to someone on WSO who gets laid off “you have running water and electricity, you’re so lucky compared to many people in the world, why so upset?” Ie someone like Kendall has always known what it’s like to have effectively unlimited spending power, so the only thing that matters to him is matching up to his father’s legacy - not material things, not even his own family.
Plus in season 3 we saw what his life was like at his 40th birthday party - despite being wealthy beyond most people’s imaginations, his life was a pathetic joke. Surrounded by tons of hanger-ons and yes-men but nobody took him seriously. That’s what he probably has to look forward to for the rest of his life now.
Anyway, another case of HBO knocking it out the park. Just a shame it’s all over.
Edit: shout out to the Tellis character (investment banker who played a minor role) - “… umm well the company’s worth what someone is willing to pay for it” - his Harvard MBA being well worth it as Roman said.
Kendall is capable, but not enough. He is not a killer, as Logan claimed. I believe that even after emerging from depression (unless he jumps off a bridge), his projects will not take off. At least none of his independent ideas or companies have been worthwhile. Without their father's inheritance, all the siblings, with the possible exception of Shiv, lack any notable achievements.
One could even argue that Shiv doesn’t have any notable achievements. As Marcia once said to her “He made you a playground, and you think it's the whole world”.
Ultimately, all of the kid’s lives have been disproportionally influenced by their father. Their name, connections, and capital, all stem from Logan’s business success.
Roman lost it in the end, Kendall isn’t a “killer”, and Shiv continuously got manipulated throughout her life (politician Gil disparaging ATN news, Matsson with the CEO position).
In the end, none of them are “serious [enough] people” for the job.
It's an ending that made a lot of sense. I guess we're kinda rooting for one / two / three of the Roy siblings to "win", but at the end of the day they're not their dad, they're their dad's kids each with a handful / glimpses of what made their dad who he was and capable of what he was doing. But they just didn't have it. They're super damaged people who will keep self sabotaging (and we have moments where we root for them before seesawing towards thinking they're awful shitheads), and that's the other part of Logan's legacy. Logan said it best, his kids just aren't serious people (even though he loves them).
Also lowkey Greg won Succession. The Roy siblings lost. Tom is a cuck at work and at home. Greg went from some dude in a hotdog outfit to Tom's work best friend (and possibly Tom's only friend) in a cushy job at a big company where the bar is basically 2 feet deep into the ground. Dude almost fumbled things with Tom and is still fine.
Connor won too, in the sense apparently the only winning move was not to play - further underlined by the fact he's revealed over the course of the season and especially the final episode the only one who had a "real" relationship with Logan out of the siblings. Dude is rich, happy, has a hot wife, and (some) of the recognition/prestige he wanted.
I suppose the question of what the siblings will do next is the big question, and what their relationships will be. It looks like Kendall is like you said adrift. Rome will go back to being a debauched playboy. Shiv who knows?
Your thoughts on Connor winning the game are spot-on, especially in regards to a relationship with Logan. I never viewed the Logan video in such a manner until now - now I can’t stop seeing the relationship as you said!
SB if you fucking hate Shiv and think she’s a useless character generated by HBO to meet diversity quotas
I was really sad that they chose this ending. I didn't really see it coming.
I'm always a sucker for a good growth story and the entire show has been foreshadowing that a little bit. Especially after Logan dies, you saw that the 3 siblings almost starting to shape a team and to trust each other a little more. I had an inkling throughout the show that Logan was in his own way "training his children" and I thought the last couple episodes of season 4 were indicators for how the 3 siblings were starting to understand that.
But to have it end in a way where all that progress meant nothing was just sad. It made me feel a little depressed. I'd have accepted - "We lost but twas a good fight" kinda story. Kendall, Roman, and Shiv were growing in their ability to execute...
If my kids are ever like that, I'm gonna give away all my money to charity and leave them with nothing. Inheritance? They better earn it.
Did we watch the same show? There was virtually zero positive progress in any of their characters, and their chances at being CEO are at a constant laughably-low level throughout the entire series. You weren't meant to be rooting for them.
An awesome ending, worthy of the Shakespearian tragedy that the show is. The eagle eyed amongst you might recognize that the show is a modern re-telling of King Lear by Shakespeare. Of course, the battlefields were replaced with boardrooms, and instead of inheriting a Kingdom, it's inheriting a media empire.
A few things:
1. In King Lear, none of the King's children inherit the throne. Two of the daughters are power-hungry and betray Lear, whilst the youngest daughter is disowned because she won't flatter him (despite loving him). This is analogous to how all three Roy siblings plot against their father, whilst Connor, who is not interested in the company, isn't given any responsibility. In the end, none of them win, but it is the son-in-law to Lear, who initially went along with the plot to oust him but then turned on his wife to aid Lear, who is crowned King. Obviously this here is Tom.
2. A common theme in Shakespearian plays is the idea of a "natural order" of things. Macbeth couldn't keep the throne because he got it through perverted means i.e. he killed the divinely anointed King Duncan. The world was therefore in imbalance, much like the world in the Royniverse with Mencken "winning" and the Roys trying to keep the company, against their father's wishes. In the end, they weren't able to overcome the power of the natural order of things, and their father's original wish was exacted as wished.
3. An interesting piece of trivia here is that Brian Cox is a Shakespearian trained actor, whose one of most famous performances is him performing as King Lear.
Once you realize these things, the ending of Succession is unsurprising and to be expected. None of the Roy siblings were ever going to win. As Logan himself said, they were not "serious people".
A beautiful modern Shakespearian tragedy with a beautiful ending. Every piece of dialogue, choice of words, choice of music, interaction, was purposeful. This is a masterpiece of a show.
I love it even more now!
Wow thanks - just wanted to say what a fantastic insight this was, I knew the show had Shakespearean themes but have to confess I didn’t know King Lear in detail so this explains a lot. Would give more than one SB if I could.
The only thing I’m still slightly confounded by is why Logan decided to sell to Matsson and not leave his legacy to one of the kids - I guess though he knew none of them ultimately had what it took. Ironically though that was in no small part his own doing - both his toxic love for his kids and also the fact he would tear them down anytime they started to succeed (snatching away Kendall’s coronation in the very first episode for example. And making Shiv leave politics - although the idea of her ever being CEO was laughable, in fairness Logan did basically promise it to her to make her abandon her career in politics, before reneging).
I look at it like sports or other businesses. It would be like if Michael Jordan had to pick his successor, would he pick Kobe or his own son. Jordan knows his son is probably good at basketball, but not the killer Kobe is. Or if Steve Jobs son was a little older, yea maybe Jobs son could do it, but he needs to find someone else like Tim Cook.
That's was Logan was trying to do, he effectively gave his kids a chance but he knew it wasn't right, and he saw himself in Matson.
del
Makes it all the more fitting.
I watched the all four seasons, I like it but it’s okay. The last episode was just that okay for me.
yeh the finale sucked
Just because it wasn’t a Disney-like happy ending doesn’t mean it sucks. It’s supposed to make you mad (I definitely was after the finale), that’s what makes it a great tragedy.
Don't think it could have ended any other way. Shiv knows that she can control Tom better then she would Kendall - who basically tossed her aside the very SECOND he took the crown - so she made the most practical (for her) move possible.
I never got the sense that she cared at all about the business; obviously she's liberal where it's conservative and doesn't agree w/ anything it stands for; she just wanted to be CEO out of prestige and ambition. She was willing to sell them out to Matsson without so much as a written or verbal agreement! Burn it down if she can't have her way.
Roman's "fall" made absolutely no sense - that's my only complaint. They turned him into a stuttering pu$$y out of nowhere. Sure, he had his issues w/ sexuality (I think he has a crush on Mencken), daddy issues, and that weird Jerri/mother thing - but he has always demosntrated a sharp business mind AND the killer instinct - Logan was ready to bring him in. Then they did a 180 w/ the character for dramatic purposes.
Kendall should have "won" - but the point is he was too full of himself to realize he hadn't secured his flank w/ Shiv.
And Matsson certainly wanted to put a gopher in place instead of someone barking orders at him all the time as Shiv did. He got his wish.
Brilliant ending - except for the BS with Roman.
Curious what examples come to mind of Roman's sharp business mind and killer instinct - in my mind he's always kind of been bumbling along, making trolly comments, with little experience or vision, but curious if there are things I'm forgetting.
I was referring moreso to the moments where he had to make a pitch or convince someone of something - the way he sold his dad on backing Mencken was brilliant - the idea he had for the business project during his management training course, the way he took control on election night - he could be pretty decisive when he needed to be, which is why watching him turn into a complete sobbing mess by the end was so ridiculous.
Shiv didn’t go with Tom to control him, she went because she’s defeated and cowering back to daddy like she used to with Logan
I agree with you. Without the threat of Tom losing his job from her or her siblings and Logan gone, she has zero manipulation power. Their entire relationship just changed with her vote. She has no power over Tom now whatsoever.
I disagree with your point about Shiv. If she had acted out of self-preservation she would have sought to defend her stance rationally. She would have explained her pragmatism and told Kendall "Look, I know you want this but I need to look after my own interests as you have looked after yours"
Instead, she tells Kendall he's not good enough, tells him she can't stomach him, and weaponizes his past. She acted out of pure infantile jealousy and resentment. If you are being pragmatic there's no need to twist the knife as she did. In fact admitting that you don't want to see someone win because you can't stomach it is an extremely embarrassing thing to admit and you wouldn't say it unless you 100% couldn't keep it in.
She was in there to absolutely wreck our #1 boy...
Thanks yeah I agree 100% with everything you said, except perhaps about Roman’s character doing a 180. Whilst he certainly has had strong moments (agreeing to doing the management training course which Shiv balked at, being savvy with other wealthy people where Kendall is off putting trying to be “too cool”) he’s always had a lot of flaws aside from his sexual peccadilloes. He’s ultimately a bit lazy and lacks attention to detail (the rocket explosion for instance). And also unlike Kendall he lacks real interest in actually running the business beyond the power trip (we see that going back to episode one of the first season).
But more so than that, he seems to have the “most toxic” relationship with Logan (in quotes as all the kids have very toxic parental relationships). Logan clearly used to beat Roman (that scene where Kendall leaps to his physical defence is fantastic in an early episode, especially when contrasted to the series finale) - which he didn’t do to the other kids. Kendall had some level of respect for being the “real eldest son”, Shiv might have arguably been his favourite, and whilst Connor is forgotten he is also much more accepting of that, to the point where he can have some type of “normal” relationship with Logan as shown in the video scene in the finale.
So in the context of all that, I don’t think it’s surprising that Roman would just have a complete breakdown at the funeral etc. He clearly loved his dad, but Logan always saw him as a weak fuck-up and nothing more (even where he was working closely with his dad in season 3 it felt like he was just the lap-dog, similar to the role Kendall briefly took in season 2).
Almost everything Roman did that turned out right or wrong was basically a choice to either try and impress his dad or try to go against the direction Kendall was going. Roman really didn't have much in the way of any original thoughts or any sharp business instinct. If he was in charge after his father died and Kendall was out the picture he would have miserably failed.
Great finale. They all lose. Matson wins.
Roman summed it up: The brothers are bullshit.
Kendall’s not good enough / doesn’t take the job seriously. That pitch to the board was painful to say the least.
Roman’s unstable. He doesn’t have a grip on his emotions.
Shiv gets played by everyone all the time. She always gets outmanoeuvred.
Tom is going to be the lighting rod for all the hate coming Matson’s way for the cost cutting. He’ll be discarded once he’s burned.
Matson won. He’s Logan. That “wake up zombies” was like seeing Logan come back.
I liked it - showed that even when the stakes are highest the kids still couldn’t come together.
Roman continues to crack under pressure. Shiv proved that for one last time all of her “moves” and everything she says is super dumb. Kendall unfortunately is still back and forth between depression and mania.
Good ending but so brutal. I'd love to re-watch it but knowing the end I don't know if I can. All that build-up just to see them lose.
I wanted to see Ken succeed so badly. Even though he was flawed I still thought he was the only one of the siblings with actual business sense, vision, and a desire to innovate. He also showed emotional vulnerability at times which seemed endearing and genuine. I feel like he had it in the end and played his card rights but had to be foiled by his siblings (they would not have him win)
I feel as though Roman and Shiv on the other hand were such childish characters. Roman is savvy at times but completely emotionally stunted and a line-crosser (funny and edgy but sometimes he said shit that merited a punch in the face)
Shiv is the worst. Completely resentful, jealous, and juvenile. Just wants to break the toy so she doesn't have to stomach her sibling playing with it. Throughout the show she behaves like a treacherous, incompetent, arrogant bitch. A lot of people will back her simply because of her gender but even if she were written as a man I'd hate the character. Really lives up to her name.
Great comment - I agree that Kendall was by far my favourite character. As well as being by far the most qualified to take over the empire (went to business school, did years in Shanghai, clearly knows business and financing structures etc) - he’s also the only character to show real vulnerability. Also he is by far the most relatable of the kids - the only one to have had a normal marriage (even if it ultimately failed), and the only one who can relate to normal people in social settings and treat them with respect (scenes in dive bars for instance, whilst the other siblings look like they’ve stepped onto an alien planet). It was honestly so heartbreaking seeing him lose in the finale.
Having said that, whilst Shiv is by far my least favourite of the kids, I can’t blame her for her decision in the boardroom - Kendall ultimately would’ve screwed her over. I mean he didn’t even maintain the facade until after the board meeting - as soon as he sat in Logan’s chair he morphed into a Logan-wannabe who acts like an asshole but without commanding respect (in similar vein to his atrocious negotiation with the bankers holding Logan’s secret debt in season one). Kendall was planning to cut her out as soon as he became co-CEO in fact - so whilst her decision was probably emotion-driven it also wasn’t the wrong one for her imho.
And that’s a constant theme with Kendall - he has the capability and smarts to be Logan, but he constantly gets ahead of himself as soon as he’s on a roll and becomes insanely arrogant without anything to back it up (even the Living+ presentation only went well because Karl reined him in from presenting ludicrous projections).
Finally, whilst Kendall is the most vulnerable and introspective - does it ultimately get him anywhere, does he learn from it? In the finale the kid who drowned came back in the most cutting way - by Kendall repudiating the cathartic scene at the end of season 3 and pretending none of it happened. Whilst Shiv clearly didn’t give a shit about the kid, it was heartbreaking to see Ken just throw away his character growth by gaslighting the siblings, just to get the throne.
So yeah whilst I’m a huge a Ken fan and it was gutting to see him defeated at the end (especially knowing he may end things or at least slip back into addiction) - ultimately I can’t blame Shiv too much despite not liking her. Kendall being Kendall meant he fumbled things at the finish line just like always (just like the boardroom scene with the failed coup in season 1).
Matsson was just a superior opponent in every way - he seduced Shiv by dangling an imaginary job in front of her, he put in a bid that undercut Kendall and Roman from any Board support after Roman's little tantrum, he completely emasculated and then broke Tom (even more than he had already been), and even managed to schmooze Mencken away (and his protection) despite being a foreigner. That guy played every card perfectly and though it went unsaid - he was basically a younger version of Logan. The "Killer" that Logan told Kendall he wasn't. Since he's basically a psycho/sociopath - his innate ability to read people and then pull their strings had him presiding over events like a Logan. Logan's kids were all too broken or emotionally damaged and "unserious" to see beyond their own petty differences.
Seriously, the more I break this stuff down the more happy I am that this show wasn't a waste of time. Best thing I've seen since "Person of Interest".
the entire series is a waste of time, despite being a big fan of other great series, this one was just seeing spoiled kids fucking up things
This show is perfect for this message board. Most of the folks here are kids of self-made parents who think they're owed something as a result. None of the Roy kids have F500 C-suite chops. Anyone who thought they did has no relevant experience with real companies. I thought the season was well done and the finale was the right move.
Agree with this, Jesse Armstrong kept true to his writing. Each Roy child had a taste of success but look at the opportunities they had. Ofcourse they are going to bat .200 or so. While Tom when he spoke straight up said why he is the typical F500 climber to CEO that scene really could not be written better. Confused when people say "Tom is a cuck", when 95% of people on here basically want to know how to get on Tom's path and Tom even explained to Shiv ("I really really like the money and shiny stuff").
Really enjoyed the scene where Frank/Karl think Tom could actually consider keeping them around when they have spent all season making fun of him. So typical of the former kings in finance who do not know when it is their time to go.
Greg and Connor huge winners and many times on this forum we discuss both those categories of guys out there.
Can you explain the take on Connor? I didn’t see the same thing you saw, however it seems several people agree with you.
He ran a failed presidential campaign and most people think of him as a joke. His wife married him for money - mostly and was planning on him leaving the house. When he said he might not leave, his wife was a bit surprised and seemed disappointed. Shiv walks by her and taps her on the shoulder and says something like, “looks like you’ll be taking care of him.”
I’m reading through these comments and amazed at how anyone could think the Roy children were capable of running the company. Think back to Roman with the space launch and how it utterly failed (no fault of Roman if I remember correctly, but hey, that was a few seasons ago) and the way he handled it. His phone started blowing up and he just chose to ignore it and continued drinking at the bar. Or it seems like Kendall was a child and he just wanted to be in charge, for the sake of checking off a box and proving to everyone he could be CEO. He would often just use business jargon and words to describe business plans or ideas. He never seemed to have a well thought out business idea. At least I didn’t take it as such.
There were times however where I thought maybe, just maybe, they did know what they were doing or might be capable, and I guess that was the point.
Overall, I loved the show. This was one of my favorite scenes of the show and I’m sure many an analyst can relate to this scene.
I had the feeling that the show wouldn't end well for Kendall. I thought the ending was okay, enjoyed Shiv's piece of humble that got shoved down her trap.
I thinkt the show was an absolute masterclass in acting, and I enjoyed Roman's oneliners. But I thought Logan was the only really interesting character. I thought the whole business part of it wasn't that interesting or very smart.
The show is loosely based on the Murdochs, Redstones and the Trumps. I have read books about all 3 families. I thought their business stories where a lot more interesting than this show. Also they basically made a caricature of the Murdoch children and Redstone's daughter named Shari which sounds a lot like Shiv.
I think focusing on family dynamics, this does not hold a fucking candle to the Sopranos for example.
I think the show also did a very good job of staying focused on the kids/family, while also using key points to tell stories. It was somewhat a double edged sword because some things made sense while others didn't really go anywhere (I've only watched it once so may have missed things):
- for example, the series opens with Logan Roy having some sort of dementia, guy is pissing on carpets and in ICU, then he's basically fine. Same with Kendall's addiction problems, they somewhat allude to it being a big deal in season 1, then the rest of the series he's somehow able to keep it in check. Shiv stuff with the open relationships, I felt they could have done more with that too, I realize they had to give her a flaw, but it didn't seem like that big a deal (I know Tom didn't really approve of it but that was it).
- other things that worked, for example, was an episode at the end where Kendall steals gum from a store for no reason, then the next episode Logan has a throw away line about cleaning it up, just shows that he always has to handle everything for his kids, even if the kids don't acknowledge it, which makes them think they are more capable than they are.
- I thought the second to last episode, the funeral, was done really well. Especially how Logan's first wife handled Marcia/Kerry, basically like it was no big deal. Ewan's speech also shed a lot of light on Logan for the entire series, that Logan lived a tough life early and Logan blamed himself for his sister's death, alludes to why Logan really can't get close to anyone. Also too, when Logan's that rich and powerful he can't let people get to close because everyone wants something, for example, Marcia was real quick in my opinion to start a stir when things when south and instead of divorcing him just tried to land grab.
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