Australian interested in IB
Salutations WSOers,
I'm a first year Bachelor of Commerce student at The University of Melbourne (#1 university in Australia, best Commerce degree in the Asia-Pacific region and #5-6 in the world for Accounting/Finance which is my intended major). I'm not trying to sound pompous by detailing those specifics, I'm just assuming that not many of you will have heard of the UoM or be familiar with Australia.
A few months ago a friend approached me about partaking in an Investment Banking Challenge facilitated by UBS and as a first year with less than half a semester of study up my sleeve, I was apprehensive. I decided to do it anyway and while it was a challenge and we probably bit off more than we could chew, I'm glad we did it. The learning curve was very steep and I didn't particularly enjoy multiple all-nighters within a week, the content I learnt and what I did was very interesting.
Unfortunately, my marks for my first semester were well below stellar. My average was 62. I got a 50, 60, 62 and 75. Admittedly, this was after having learnt the courses for each subject in the 1-2 days preceding the exams because I partied and worked way too much in my first semester after working incredibly hard in high school for my final 2 years.
There is no doubt in my mind that I will achieve very high marks from this point onward but what I am concerned about is not being able to get an internship.
When applying for my internships I will have my first semester marks and second semester marks from my first year on my academic transcript. What I was wondering is where I would stand with a 62 average in my first semester and a 80-85 average in my second semester. Would I be filtered out straight away or do I still stand a chance?
Thanks and I look forward to my time on here.
Hi IncredIBle, I'v personally interviewed in Melbourne BB's before and I can tell u other candidates I'v met generally have a WAM of above 75, there was also people with WAMs of 85+. So I think generally you will need at least a 75 to be considered. Regarding internships, generally the Australian IB's only hire penultimate year students, so you shouldnt worry too much about not being able to score IB internships before that. Instead focus more on improving your marks,EC's and try to get a big4 internship before that if possible. Currently the IB environment isn't too great and in Melbourne, the total number of interns hired this year by ALL IB's can probably be counted by your fingers and toes, so definitely start early in preparing yourself. Good Luck!
Hi eviloctal,
Thanks very much for your prompt response.
I'm not concerned with getting an internship this year since I'm still a first year student but I guess what I was wondering whether they will just look at my average mark and flat out reject me if it's below a particular number or if they will put more weighting on more recent marks as this would provide a better indication of my current abilities. Hopefully it's the latter of the aforementioned options!
In your CV, just list your WAM, if its above 75, you shouldnt have a problem. However having said that, having a good enough mark is just step 1 out of many steps you need to secure a BB IB. Stuff like EC's, previous job experiences..etc are more important once you have a WAM > 75
I understand, thank you.
Without delving too far into the discussion, could you give me some tips on what sort of ECs and work experience is looked upon most favorably?
I'm currently an adjudicator for the Debaters' Association of Victoria, an Assistant Director for Content at the United Nations Youth Association of Australia, am a math tutor at a company and work at McDonald's.
Hi mate, small world. I've just finished my second year at the University of Melbourne (B.Com- Finance) and I'm going to be interning in IB at a BB (bulge bracket- in case you're new to WSO) in Sydney this summer, so perhaps I can add some valuable advice.
I'll be candid and tell you that I have a High Distinction average (~85%) that I've maintained since my first semester. In all honesty, you really need to get your grades up. You absolutely need near/above an H1 average to be seriously considered for IB. Whether the bank weights your earlier or later grades more depends on the bank in question- some ask for your transcripts early on (ie when you apply) and others only want to see them after they've made you an offer to verify your grades were as you said they were. Personally, I think you'll be fine as long as you pull your grades up quite a bit and quickly (you should have enough time to do so by the time you're a serious candidate for IB spots, ie after your second year- two more full semesters, which is what you'll have done before you need to apply if you've just started your second semester, should be long enough to pull your grades up). Keep in mind that a 62 average last semester and an 85 next semester, as you predicted, is only a 73.5% average, so you need to keep improving from there by getting 85+ every semester from now on.
In terms of relevant extracurricular and work experience, get as much finance-related stuff as you can under your belt. I have studied both in the US and here (went to a semi-target/target on the East coast of the US freshman year before transferring to UoM after freshman year for financial reasons) and I know that relevant financial work experience early on in your degree is potentially harder to come by here, both because there are fewer firms here and the culture here emphasises organised internships less so you need to hustle more to find something on your own, especially as a first year student. I would suggest looking for relevant extracurricular experience outside of uni- take a financial modelling class, that sort of thing. Also do all the case competitions you can, anything like that that demonstrates your interest in finance will help much more than any debating-related activities etc. At uni, join organisations like FMAA and ESSA etc to demonstrate more interest, but perhaps more importantly gain access to people who will be able to help/mentor you towards what you want- I never did and managed to get internships etc on my own, but if I was to do one thing differently I'd join (and really get involved with- just joining won't help) FMAA. If you have a leadership position in FMAA by the time you apply, you will demonstrate real interest and that can only help.
Many banks run 2-3 day introductory programs that often make it easier to get internships after (I did one with Ernst & Young to learn about the firm and they invited some attendees, including myself, to apply for the following year's internship program early, before they even started accepting general applications for the positions). I turned the invitation down because I was going to be on exchange at the time, but that sort of thing is a great way in. Unfortunately, those programs are also selective and you need to have strong grades to be seriously considered (unless you can convince them, in your answers to their questions, why they should invite you when you don't have the grades they want yet).
Finally, as @eviloctal mentioned, Melbourne IB is relatively small and Sydney- as the financial capital of Australia- has more opportunities, intern and career wise. Consider applying there as well, if not instead- I think that the smaller size of the Melbourne market will make it even more competitive in some respects. That being said, I also think that stronger candidates may gravitate to Sydney because of the opportunity there, so spread your applications around to be safe.
Hopefully that was helpful, it's nice to see a fellow UoM student on here and I tried to be comprehensive. Feel free to post more here/PM me if I can help further.
Forgot to mention it, but I'll also add that as a finance student you'll get more technical questions at interviews than students studying other disciplines, but keep in mind that the technical questions you'll get WILL NOT only be about things you'll learn in finance 101/business finance, or any other finance classes you'll take before you apply for the internships. You are expected to know this stuff, and will need to find ways of learning it outside uni (the WSO technical guide/other financial modelling courses are good places to start)- but you have time for this, get your grades up first.
Banker from Australia now working in Asia posting.
You can have poor marks in your first semester as long as you improve and have a story around it. We're mainly concerned with the average mark.
Not getting high marks - think about it from my perspective. Some new analyst = guy who will be running models for me at 2am night after night. If you didn't learn the concepts right when you were doing ~16 hours a week of lectures and tutorial time at university or couldn't cram it right for an exam, how can I trust that you can get it right when I've got you operating on 4 hours of sleep a night for a $1b dollar deal?
I'm not going to waste time in an interview working out how you're a special snow flake full of innovation and other buzzwords. I'm looking for an booksmart intelligent kid who has basic technical skills and shows a spark of potential which I can develop. Some kids may walk in to an interview and how other skills/talents/etc which would make them excellent relationship bankers or whatever, but they are not going to get the job. That's not what I'm after in a grad and I'd put my money on the probability that their sense of self-worth is far, far higher than their actual value. We see plenty of these kids, thanks for coming, yeah we might be missing the next fantastic banker, but there's the door.
Otherwise, you can go the relationship hire route (works much better in Asia than Australia) and it's not about you, it's all about how much business your father/uncle will bring to us if we hire is ne'er do well son/nephew.
Work experience - anything showing a blend of being able to grind, grin and bear it in the corporate context is good. We don't hire analysts as entrepreneurs and entrepreneurial jobs are only valuable if you can show you've either gunned it or failed but learned from it. A summer vacationer stint at an accounting firm will give us confidence that you have some technical skills that make up for crap first year marks. Any sort of job during university, really, even McDonalds - something that shows you have the discipline to turn up on time and not get fired, rather than being a Gen-Y (or whatever the latest generation is) self-entitled whiny bitch. I'd take someone who worked at McDonalds but did something interesting at University outside of being treasurer of the Commerce Club or some other infinitely transparent CV-building activity.
You need to trim up on your language, if your verbal/written sounds like your posting. If I see "partaking" in an e-mail or hear it in a sentence, I think "pompous dickhead". And I did Latin for 5 years in highschool and still quote Cataline poetry occasionally. If a simpler word would suffice, use it. George Orwell wrote a good essay on this, if that makes you feel better about being perceived as down market.
If you're from Melbourne and looking for in-roads into Australian IB, coming from the right school seems to help. I'm from Sydney and have dealt with Melbourne bankers mainly within my own organisation. The Melbourne establishment and old school tie seems to count for a lot more than it does in Sydney.
"#1 university in Australia, best Commerce degree in the Asia-Pacific region and #5-6 in the world for Accounting/Finance which is my intended major" - Are there stats behind this? I'd like to think my alma mater (UNSW) had the better commerce degree, at least in my time (a long time ago). This may be based on something reliable, but unless you were citing some credible source, my response as an interviewer would be scepticism, with "pompous dickhead" coming to mind.
+SB for you, nice post. Sorry to hijack your thread OP, but @SSits could you comment more on bankers' expectations for interns on the job, what you all like to see, what you need to do to get the FT offer etc? I'm interning in IB with a major bank that has a pretty solid presence in Asia/Australia and a relatively small intern class this summer, and want to stand out as much as possible. Anything that you as a banker would like to see in the interns that get the FT offer (especially things that might not be obvious) would be super helpful. Also, from the way the bankers were selling me on the program/talking about the bank, I got the impression that the FT offer was mine to lose rather than one I had to win- could this be accurate? While I'm obviously not going to go in there complacent and entitled, it'd certainly be nice to know that there's already a solid chance I could work FT with this bank/group.
@notthehospitalER - I came into IB in a non-traditional way (I was once an M&A lawyer), so my perspective may not be an average IBankers view.
That disclaimer done, what do I want to see in an intern?
In short, reliable guy/girl who gets the grunt work done and show some glimmer in understanding the larger business.
For the first month, I expect that everything an intern does will be useless, but will give me opportunities to educate/develop them. Then they are useful for a few months and I get dependent. Then they bugger off back to university or whatever. Interns = grunt work = "please put these particular lines from the last 3 years' annual reports into an XLSX for me plus margins, also into a PPTX".
In Asia, also "please google the Chinese press for articles on company and give me a semi-useful summary of what you find".
If you show promise, I'll get you to do more interesting stuff.
When I worked in law, most interns thought their insight would bring about some special game changing event and, if I was lucky, they'd work for someone who had the patience for that crappery and I'd get someone who was just focused on getting the grunt work done.
Second disclaimer on the above: I'm a IBanker who likes to think (likely mistakenly) that I've got more EQ than your average banker and likes to think I spend more time training up the junior bankers and interns than average. The feedback I get from the interns who do work for me and others supports this. But I could be entirely delusional.
Hi incredible,
Good to see somebody so keen on IB straight out of High School.
I am from Sydney and will be interning at a BB in Sydney this November through January.
First of all, I want to give you an insight into how competitive it is - not to discourage you but just so you are aware.
I have a friend who did an accounting cadetship at Deloitte (2+ years), interned at UBS equity research last year, is studying commlaw, 80+ WAM, very strong ECs and he did not get an offer for an internship.
I know of other people that are commlaw, 80+ wam, finalist in UBS Investment Banking challenge and did not get offers. From what I have been told, HR at BBs will filter at Distinction average (WAM 75+). This is not a rule, but unless you have something really spectacular on your CV apart from grades it will be tough.
Btw commlaw is the joint commerce/law degree that is very popular at UNSW/USYD and much much harder to get into than commerce.
So the question is, if a recruiter has a CV of a commlaw from USYD with wam 85+, strong ECs, UBS investment banking challenge finalist, a clerkship at a top law firm, and banks are not hiring many people these days why would they bother interviewing you? (I don't mean to sound harsh).
If you are still keen, my suggestions on how to break in:
FYI I come from a really non-conventional background (think journalism) that is studying finance as a postgrad so if you want it bad enough you can get it.
Same here, starting in BB IB in Australia in a few months. I too come from a non-traditional background, didn't even go to uni in Australia, dont have a commlaw degree, nor do we have FMAA/other decent finance related clubs in our uni. But like @rmb said, as long as you work hard to prove that there is a reason for the banks to hire you, you can still do very well for yourself.
In general, the interviewers like to see you have a demonstrated interest if not passion in IB. This can be shown through 1)Keeping up to date with the financial news 2)Involvement in leadership related roles in FMAA, 3）Participation in finance related competitions (UBS challenge, Tradingplaces, BNP Paribas Ace Manager, Credit Suisse Holt challenge...etc) and related work experiences
To add to rmb's post, but more generally than he did- to my knowledge, most banks (even BB's) will take interns, and many even
Thank you very much for all of your detailed responses. I really appreciate each and every one of them and will do my best to bring to fruition everything suggested.
I do have another question.
I was at the FMAA Corporate Cocktails event earlier this year when I was introduced to an IB analyst at a boutique firm that is known for excellence. Think top of the range boutique. I was introduced by a mutual friend.
It turns out that he went to my high school (it's a prestigious private school so I should probably try looking for more people that went there to reach out to) and he studied BCom at Melb majoring in Acc/Fin which is exactly what I intend on majoring in.
I recently made a LinkedIn and sent him an invitation to connect and also sent him a message reminding him of our meeting etc and said that I'd love to speak to him again over a coffee. He was quick to respond and said "sure", asking when I am free (peculiar since he's the one in IB - not me haha).
I just wanted to ask some of you guys, do you think he knows what my intentions are by meeting him then asking to catch up again and obviously form a relationship. Surely this is a regular occurrence for them. Is he likely to be able to help me very much? In general though, he seems like a pretty cool guy and was quite chill when I met him. That's another thing I love about IB. I've perceived from all of the people working in IB that while they are obviously very intelligent and very good with people, none of them have ego complexes and are all very personable and humble.
To the analysts and above in IB on here, what sort of questions should I ask that would impress you the most and result in you being inclined to put in a good word about me come applications for internships etc.
Thanks very much in advance.
@incredIBle
I assume you went to Xavier or Grammar? Definitely utilise your school network.
I went to a comparable school in Sydney and you will easily form connections with people that went to your school / rival schools. I met a guy a few years my senior in banking and he became extremely friendly as soon as we found out we went to the same school (how are we doing in sport etc).
What are your intentions with this guy? Unless you are trying to bed him I assume he will know that you just want to find out more about banking and form a contact. From what I have experienced, if people like you and you demonstrate enthusiasm, people are generally willing to help out without any return. I would however be careful in how much you "ask for help", just tread carefully. I wouldn't approach it as "can you help me with applications" but rather use it as a time to get more information, insider info about the industry, help craft your "story" and if it so happens you get help recruiting wise it happens.
I would also say don't try to impress the guy. Talk about finance but also general interests like sport etc to show that you are well-rounded.
This. When you ask about whether he will know what your intentions are, you're making it clear that you're only trying to use him as leverage to find a job in IB. OP, keep this in mind- the best time to network is when you don't need to: by that I mean you should network with the goal of genuinely making a new friend etc as much as possible, rather than obviously to find an internship/a job. To answer your question, it will be plainly obvious if you reach out to him with the sole purpose of getting a job and only harbour selfish intentions. Actually try and learn something from him- bounce ideas off him, ask him questions every once in a while etc, and keep in mind that he will be more willing to help you down the track (when you need it- now is early) if you're actually good friends at the time. If you do try to impress him, keep it simple- and by that I mean show a genuine interest in the industry, an actual desire to learn etc. When trying to impress him, keep in mind that he will only be impressed by your knowledge/interest etc as it stands relative to your peers- and not relative to him. No chance you'll know more than he will about anything relevant, so don't try and impress him in a way that might backfire and make you look stupid. My advice would be to learn as much as you can about what he does (the firm he works at, the group he works in if he's not a generalist, etc).
My money is on Lazard.
Hey all,
Quick note- since I know at least a few of us are chatting w/ each other now, I created an I-Banking Australia group. Might turn out to be a good resource for banking questions/info with regards to Australia if it gets populated- join the group and spread the word, if you'd like to. About me needing to approve WSO users who try to join the group: not me being elitist, it just wouldn't let me select automatic acceptance. Will accept everyone who wants to join.
Thanks for the replies, guys.
The main purpose of me reaching out and wanting to form a friendship with him is that since he is from my alma mater both for high school and university, he is much more likely to share "inside" info on what it's actually like to work at his particular organisation, what the work is like, what the corporate culture is like and what they are looking for etc.
When I asked whether he would be aware of my intentions, I didn't mean any intentions of just using him to leverage any work experience or an internship and subsequently a full time offer or anything. I just feel as though it may come across as a bit self-interested. I'll definitely talk to him lots about his "story" though and what sports he was involved in etc in high school (this was big at our school) and just try to form a good relationship with him, first of all.
I will say that I didn't go to Xavier or a grammar school, but the second part of my school name was "College". He isn't from Lazard, either.
Greenhill? Moelis & Co? Haha I'm curious now. I don't think anybody would have a problem with you wanting to talk to them about what it's like at the bank etc- basically, information you can't get through the website or even normal recruiting pathways. He will likely be happy to share his candid opinions (as long as he likes you) and I'm sure he'd ask similar questions if the roles were reversed. Networking to find a job in IB isn't as important in Australia as it is elsewhere (I have spent a lot of time studying overseas, including all of 2013, and managed to find an IB internship having literally zero contacts at Australian banks) but shit, developing a solid relationship with him certainly can't hurt. From what I gather you seem to know enough about the industry to genuinely mean you want to work in IB- lots of people say it because of the perception surrounding it but don't really know much about it- but having contacts like the one you are referring to will also help you decide whether IB really is for you etc. I have tried to build a network of people (I know a bunch in finance overseas although few in finance in Australia) in different finance jobs and it has really helped solidify a genuine interest in IB. Especially at a graduate level, IB is something you want to be sure you want before you enter it, as much as possible.
He's at Flagstaff.
Yeah I'd like to think I know a bit about IB and I really want to work in it. It will be interesting to see how I cope with the hours, though. It's all well and good that I find the work interesting now but the only experience I've had was the UBS comp. Modelling for 100 hours a week will be a completely different ball game!
I don't think anybody can speak to what working those kinds of hours are like before actually working them, and I can't imagine they're "easy" for anyone, especially at the start- I think banking suits people who are resilient and independent (say goodbye to time-dependent organised extracurriculars like team sports when you're in banking).
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